Svar mitt til AiG varðandi þeirra grein um helvíti

6.7.2012 | 14:24

Svar mitt til AiG varðandi þeirra grein um helvíti

Hérna er greinin sem ég er að svara, sjá: http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v7/n3/eternal-torment

Ég svaraði þeim á ensku og vonandi veldur það engum vandamálum. Ef að raunverulegur áhugi er fyrir hendi þá gæti ég þýtt þetta yfir á íslensku.

Greetings Tim

I’d like to reply to the article that was published on June 6 by AiG. Reading it was really disturbing because it distorted the image of God in a very monstrous way.

Tim
The key is to look at the question from a different angle—what kind of God would not condemn His enemies to an eternal hell?

The answer would be a loving God who values justice, who values a world without sin and suffering and shows compassion on the children He created. The key to this is found in the words of Jesus.

Luke 12:47-48
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Everyone will be punished according to their works and according to the knowledge they had received. But the final fate of everyone who is found guilty of sin and has no saviour is stated very clear in Scriptures, for example we read in Malachi and 2. Thessalonians.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 4:3
And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the LORD of hosts.

Tim
To ask the first question is to fundamentally misunderstand the very nature of God; it is to re-form God in the image of man, because here’s the thing: If you want a God who is good—truly good—and if you want a God who is just and holy, then you must have this God, this God who condemns people to suffer the eternal torments of hell. You cannot have the God you want unless there is a hell.

Why? Where do we read in the Bible that being holy, just and good is about torturing people? What we must have is a God who punishes according to the sins committed. Would anyone think it was a good judge who condemned those who were guilty to be tortured with fire for a year or two? Wouldn’t the whole Christian world cry out and object to that kind of treatment of prisoners? It must be obvious to anyone that eternal torture is not the only option when it comes to punishment.

Tim
You cannot have a God who is all-knowing and all-powerful and so very good. God’s goodness doesn’t negate eternal punishment in hell; it demands it.

These attributes of God seem to demand punishment but to torture someone for a hundred years is an obvious injustice.

Tim
On what basis can I so strongly and confidently assert the necessity and existence of eternal, conscious torment in hell, even if my heart naturally cries out in rebellion against the thought?

Think about this, creation cries out there is a God. Our conscience cries out that stealing, lying, adultery and murder are wrong. Out whole being seems to know what justice is as it’s something we seem to crave. We want the child that starved to experience plenty and the man who was to blame for that child’s pain to feel the pain he caused. There is nothing in our being that asserts that to set someone on fire and make sure that the pain will last for millions of years have got anything to do with justice.

Is it possible that your heart maybe cries out because this is not justice?

Tim
The Bible describes hell as a place where God pours out His wrath on people who have been created in His image (Matthew 10:28; 25:46; Revelation 14:10–11; 20:10–15).

Please take a moment to reflect on this. You said that the Bible is clear on the matter. Now, being clear should then state it plainly that sinners will be tortured for all eternity. In light of that then why don’t any of the verses you pointed out, say clearly that the wages of sin is eternal torment? Matthew 10:28 says we should be afraid of God because He has the power to destroy the soul. Destroy is the opposite of maintaining the souls of men for the purpose of torturing them. The verse in Revelation 14 refers to those who worship the beast so that’s not all mankind and it doesn’t say their torment will last forever; it only has the metaphor that the smoke of their pain goes up forever. In my opinion that is to describe that the memory of what happened will last forever because God said:

Nahum 1:9-10
What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time. For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.

God will make an utter end of sin, of pain and suffering.

Now Revelation 20:10-15 is the only verse in the entire Bible that talks about eternal torment but there a few things to consider there. First the book of Revelation is a book filled with symbols so one should be careful to create a doctrine from it. Secondly, there is no mention of sinners there, it’s just the devil and the beasts and the false prophet. Thirdly the person who wrote the book of Revelation was a Hebrew and the Hebrew or Biblical concept of eternity was different from ours. Many times the Bible uses the word for eternity but applies it to a time that has already passed. For example in Jonah 2:6, "for ever" means "three days and nights." (See also Jonah 1:17.) and in Deuteronomy 23:3, forever means "10 generations”.

Tim
This is not momentary or temporary torture dispensed by Satan or his demons, but eternal torment poured out by God Himself. This punishment will be inflicted upon conscious human beings, people who know who they are, what they were, what they have done (Luke 16:22–31).

Don’t you think saying that is a bit over the top when you reflect on the fact that those verses you pointed out never mentioned eternal torment for sinners? Now for the verse in Luke it’s a parable that can’t be describing real events because the Bible is very clear that the wicked are not being punished now, they are reserved for judgement.

2 Peter 2:9
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.

Also the parable says nothing in the parable in Luke 16 that says that the torment of the rich man was going to last forever.

Tim
This is the only way to explain the Father’s decision not to spare His Son but to deliver Him to suffer in our place (Romans 8:32). An eternal, infinite being was needed to bear the weight of an infinite punishment.

How can that be the only way? Now when Jesus died on the cross He said “It is finished; meaning that He had paid the price of the sin of the world. Now if the price of sin is eternal conscience life in torment then Jesus didn’t pay the price. So that’s obviously not the only way. The most logical way is that the wages of sin is death like Paul says in Romans 6:23, then it makes sense that Jesus died for our sins.

Tim
Justice demands conscious punishment, not mere annihilation of the person or his or her sin.

There is the option of conscious punishment before the annihilation which the Bible speaks so clearly about.

Psalms 37:9
For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

Psalms 37:10
For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

Psalms 37:20
But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Isaiah 47:14
Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves
from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.

Ezekiel 28:19
All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Malachi 4:1
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Tim
What clearer example do we have than Jesus Christ who consciously bore God’s wrath against sin?

We actually have an actual example that God said is an example of what hell is; it’s found in Jude.

Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire

We know these two cities were completely destroyed so why not the same fate of sinners? This of course is in harmony with what Jesus said, that we should fear God because He has the power to destroy us.

Tim
It tells us that God must be separated from sin, and it says that He is committed to seeking His own honor. God is unimaginably holy, utterly perfect to the greatest degree and the farthest extent. And because He is holy, He is good.

Why then would God use His power to maintain sin and suffering for all eternity? Doesn’t it sound better what the Bible says the future holds?

Revelation 21:3-4
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

The doctrine of eternal torment says there will never be an en of sin, never be an end to sorrow, crying or pain. It’s a very gloomy picture and totally contrary to the clear testimony of scripture.

Tim
They are incompatible, irreconcilable. And so sinners must be cast out, and they must be kept out of God’s presence.

Do you believe that God is Omnipresence? If God is everywhere at all times then God would be aware of the pain that the sinners are experiencing, all their cries and please for the pain to stop. The only way to be kept out of God’s presence is to stop existing.

Tim
Amazingly, astoundingly, the infinite Son of God suffered infinite punishment upon the Cross.

What you are really saying here is that Jesus cheated. Instead of eternal torment Jesus just suffered and died which doesn’t come close to a down payment for one sinner, let alone for the sins of every sinner that has ever lived.

Tim
When you cry out against a God who punishes people in a place like hell, you cry out against the God who has revealed Himself in the pages of Scripture.

I cry out because my sense of justice, love and compassion, the very things I learn about in scripture are in no harmony with everlasting torture.

Tim
But sin demands eternal punishment, while grace calls for eternal love and joy, the re-establishment of the good and holy relationship that our Creator intended to enjoy with us forever.

Then why doesn’t the Bible say that directly? Why didn’t God warn Adam and Eve of the punishment of eating the fruit? Why didn’t God tell Adam and Eve that if they ate of the tree of good and evil they and all their children might be set on fire and tormented for all eternity?

That’s like a father telling his child that if they steal a cookie then they will be spanked. Then when it happens the father looks them in the basement and sets them on fire. The fact is that if the doctrine of eternal torment in Hell is true then God lied to Adam and Eve regarding the punishment of eating of the tree of good and evil

Also, why didn’t God ever warn anyone in the Old Testament of eternal torment? There were many warnings, Moses warned the people of sin, all the prophets warned of sin and the terrible consequences of sin but not once did any of them warn of eternal torment, why?

My heart cries out because what you are teaching is accusing my heavenly father of being more cruel than any Hitler or Stalin. There is a simple solution to this:

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

If this is true then everyone gets a chance of eternal life, those who reject it are punished according to their works and then don’t receive eternal life. Then there will be a judgement and after the judgement there is an end to sin and affliction will not rise again. Then these words of Scripture can come true.

Hope you give this some serious thought so you don’t follow men’s traditions but follow the clear teaching of Scripture which is both logical and loving.

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